Pre-EVO 2014 Roundtable Discussion: 6 Top Players, including Daigo, talk about the future of Ultra Street Fighter 4's tournament scene.

Do Characters Used By Top Players Get Punish?

4Gamer: Let's take a step back from character rank. It's almost been a month since the home version of USF4 released at the same time that arcade USF4 got a new version. You could say that this speed of rebalancing is unheard of for recent fighting games. How does everyone feel about this point?

Daigo: If you take, for example, Gunslinger Stratos, updates come very often so you don't really mind it. You could make the claim that this type of game focuses more on your battle technique rather than on your character selection, so if my selected character becomes unusable after 1 month, it wouldn't be a big problem. However, I personally feel that fighting games should not change the strength of characters so frequently as it does not match the genre.


Tokido: The idea of picking a character and practicing with one's utmost effort would disappear.

Daigo: If Ultra Street Fighter 4 were to have continual updates in such short spans, the number of people that would alter their levels of competition would probably increase. Every time there is a balance change, people would just pick among the top 3 ranked characters. If that were to happen, the true quintessence of fighting games would be lost.

Kazunoko: In other words people would flock to the same characters and it would be harder to display individual styles of play.

4Gamer: On the other hand, you could argue that the game would achieve better balance across multiple updates.

Tokido: Yeah I agree. If they tweak the system so that all characters can show their individual styles and still be viable, I believe that quick, continuous updates would be welcome. This update came very quickly after the initial release, so I expect that such short-time balance changes will continue into the future.

Itazan: I sense that version 1.02 is not too far off in the distant future.

Daigo: Actually, I always think this whenever a fighting game gets balanced. Ultimately, the characters used by top players always get punished.

Everyone: Aahhh~

Daigo: In USF4, I can't help but think that Sagat and Akuma got nerfed because of these guys (points finger at Tokido and Bonchan). Conversely, Cammy and Fei-Long escaped the nerf bat because no one really showcased their strengths in public. Is this not equivalent to punishing the hard work of top players?

Bonchan: Preach it Daigo! Preach on brotha! Keep going.

4Gamer: Now that you mention it, I have that impression of Gen.

Tokido: If Xian hadn't used Gen, there's a chance that he would have never gotten nerfed. (laughs)

Kazunoko: Despite trying so hard, in the end you just receive the scorn of other players using the same character….

Daigo: This is very reminiscent of the game Battle Garegga*. The more you win, the more difficult it becomes, so players die on purpose just to lower the difficulty level.

*Battle Garegga is a 1996 arcade plane shooting game made by Rising Studios. The difficulty level would change according to your remaining life and power up status. In order to clear the game and achieve a high score, players would self-implode and lower the difficulty whenever they got an extra life.

4Gamer: Streams have become the tournament standard in order to create hype in the community so good players have a lot more exposure. How to best approach balancing will forever be a hot topic not only for fighting games, but any type of competitive game.

Itazan: I don't mind nerfs and buffs, but personally I feel that the "back tracking" done in version 1.01 is a bit concerning.

Momochi: For example what happened to Dhalsim's standing MK ,Guy's whirlwind kick, or Ken's crouching MK, makes me feel that the character concept and balance direction is not consistent. When Ken's crouching MK got buffed, I felt that the game programmers wanted him to be played like that. Just one month later, the buff was removed from the game and makes we wonder what they were trying to do in the first place. (laughs)


Daigo: There is also a growing trend to give more firepower to "unpopular" and underused characters. It's because they were not fun to play with that they are unpopular, so what can you accomplish without first addressing that aspect? If a character is weakened, at least give the character a different way of fighting, as in the case of Akuma. This type of rebalance would be very welcomed.

Tokido: Version 1.01 Akuma is very fun to play right?

Bonchan: If you change the way of playing a character, at least the player can have fun developing new strategies. For example, changing Sagat's HK tiger knee -> FADC from +3 to +4 frames.

Momochi: If they did that than it would only be making the current situation easier. If they made HK tiger knee -> FADC +5 for example, he could link cr.MP or standing HK and players could enjoy discovering new combos.

Daigo: What changes would have been good for Sagat?

Bonchan: You could leave tiger shot the way it is in version 1.01, but at least give me some new ingredients to upgrade my firepower, as Momochi had mentioned.

Daigo: You mean turn Sagat into a more damage based character?

Bonchan: If they could compensate Sagat for weakened zoning with higher firepower, wouldn't that be nice?

Daigo: Well if we're talking purely about enjoyment, then I think Yun's strength is okay because he speeds up the game. Imagine if they made boxer the strongest character by making his dash straight punch 200 damage. Everyone just be doing this--(Daigo performs the crouch blocking pose).

Bonchan: It would be very bad if charge characters were made strong. If everyone were playing to win, no one would make the first move.

Tokido: If that's the case then charge character players would be resigned to weak characters. Instead, why don't we introduce forward charging moves?

Daigo: I'll put my neck out there and say it at my own risk, but I honestly feel that charge characters in Street Fighter 4 must inevitably be weak. The ease of control given to beginner players must somehow be balanced out. Another solution would be to give advanced players the ability to perform charge partitioning. Charge a little then walk forward, charge up again and unleash a sonic boom or dash straight. I'm sure users would be happy with this ability.

Bonchan: Wouldn't this be a little too broken?

Daigo: To balance it out you could lower their damage and change other things. The following example applies to Evil Ryu in the current meta: Against charge characters that have moves to pass through fireballs, the character with the fireball must attack. Isn't this like approaching an enemy archer who has his bow drawn at you? Isn't that strange?

4Gamer: It's a good point you make (laughs). I'm a bit concerned with the current timing of the game's release. On one hand you have Japanese arcades that received the game early. On the other hand, the game was released earlier for console outside of Japan. Outside of Japan, it seems that people are decrying the 1 month early arcade release as an unfair advantage. What do you think about this point?

Daigo: If Red saving attack and W Ultra were stronger system mechanics, I feel it may be an unfair advantage. However, as we have discussed up until now, these two mechanics do not affect the gameplay that much so I think it's a moot point.

Tokido: Yes, if the new system mechanics were more important, it may very well be unfair. However, even the new characters were rebalanced again.

Daigo: Japan does have an advantage with having an arcade environment, but this advantage is nothing new. Couldn't you say that the synchronized release (version 1.01) of arcade and console version abroad has finally brought some sense of parity?

4Gamer: I see. For hardcore players, timing is not that big of an issue, right? Do you have something you'd rather say about the character balance? (laughs)

Daigo: Yes. I want the producers to think about how to improve the game's fun factor when they are rebalancing the game. Tournament players and hardcore players will usually have a sub character waiting in the wings so they can change characters whenever they please. The system changes affect them less so than average users. Thus, I want the producers to prioritize the game's enjoyment when creating the game. This way, everyone will be happy.

The Significance of Tournament Play

4Gamer: This is a slight change in topic. Daigo, you've said in the past that you don't simply want to enter in tournaments, but also show high level play as well. How does everyone feel about entering tournaments?

Tokido: Well, the higher the prize is, the higher the motivation.

Bonchan: This is absolute.

4Gamer: Tokido, among all the pro Japanese gamers, you've competed in many tournaments.

Tokido: Yes even now that's the case. Whatever the case may be, a pro player can strive to make his presence known by winning. However in order for fighting games become to better, my current method must change. This topic is related to the USF4 update as well.

4Gamer: What exactly do you mean?

Tokido: I believe that I should not only display my fighting style on the surface level, but spend more time to create deeper strategies. In this way, I can establish a fighting style entirely unique to me, and I will eventually win in the long run. That's why this year I'm going to focus solely on King of Fighters 13 and USF4.

Itazan: Wow, this is considerably fewer titles you are entering than before.

Tokido: USF4 goes without saying, but I'm coming for the crown in KOF 13 as well. The players I practice with really support me, and it's my role to ensure their support is not in vain.

Momochi: Of course I think winning is important, but the results are not everything.

Tokido:Yeah Momochi, you're really like that.

Itazan: Now that you mention it, Momochi you've always been focused on "content" and what actually happens during the match.

Daigo: If winning was the only thing that mattered in fighting games, it's likely that the very idea of fighting games would be altered. Even if you had perfect game balance and everyone focused only on winning, competitiveness would be established thoroughly. But that's not the case right now.

4Gamer: Ah I see. That concept is connected to balance. How about you Kazunoko?

Kazunoko: Well for me I just love to play games at the arcade and win at tournaments, so this is just an extension of that.

Itazan: That's the heart of the matter for me. Every tournament has a different concept and if I can find value in that concept, then I'll always enter tournaments.

Momochi: Well if there was a worldwide USF4 tournament for 100 million yen I would probably use Yun. If I say this maybe it will kill the entire discussion, but fighting games has yet to reach that value of pure competition.

Tokido: You're right. If there was a tournament for 100 million yen, even Itabashi Zangief would use Yun too, right?

Itazan: For 100 million yen I would bring out a serious Yun!


Daigo: I would predict all of you to use Yun and use boxer myself to counter pick.

Tokido: Yeah you would have to definitely prepare a boxer beforehand.

Daigo: But wouldn't that type of strategy actually occur? The number of character virtually extinct from the tournament scene would increase.

Momochi: Even if you won Evo, the prize purse would only be 1 million to 2 million yen. If we interpreted it pessimistically, one could say that the scene has only achieved that level of recognition (measured monetarily). That's why you have to show some value other than just winning.

Tokido: If you create a fun product, it will attract more attention. With increased attention, the positive potential for these games may increase.

Daigo: To be fair, if we were to compare fighting games to mahjong, then fighting games definitely have the advantage. You could spend 2 days playing a mahjong hundred games and still not declare the most skilled player. A hundred games in mahjong is equivalent to a race to 3, no rather its closer to a race to 2 in fighting games.

4Gamer: In other words, are you saying that mahjong is a game based on luck?

Daigo: Well for a race to 3 in fighting games, there's very little possibility that you will lose 100% to a newbie masher. In mahjong, there's a possibility that you could lose to a "masher newb" in a hundred game set no matter how strong you are.

Bonchan: No way you would lose to a newb in a 100 games for mahjong. A newb mahjong player, come on!


Daigo: Well when I was working in a mahjong parlor, I saw newbie players go on crazy winning streaks across three days. It's a ridiculous game. If I think about it, I'm playing a good game in USF4 now.

Bonchan: Well…let's stop all the mahjong talk for now. Everyone has their own type of tournament that they want to win. Rather than win in a single elimination tournament, I see more value in winning a league tournament where the difference in skill level can be displayed. If the tournament has a good rule set, my motivation becomes higher.

Daigo: Actually you're right. Even if the prize pot were smaller I would still want to enter a league battle. Anytime you enter a tournament you want to be satisfied with the competition and rules.

4Gamer: After Evo 2014, there will be an official Japanese Capcom USF4 tournament with prize money. I've heard that it will be both singles and 3v3 team battle.

Daigo: Its single elimination, so in the case of 3v3 even if you win you could be eliminated if your 2 other teammates lose. These rules are quite severe.

Itazan: So if you lose the first two matches, the third person won't even get to play?

Tokido: This is going to be intense pressure for anyone that teams up with Daigo.

4Gamer: That means that this tournament format won't necessarily demonstrate your true potential. Are you okay entering such a tournament?

Daigo: I'll enter. But that's because I live in Japan. If I lived abroad, the returns would be too low and I wouldn't enter. If there were more cash prize tournaments, you could enter more. But now there is too much difference between tournaments so we are forced to strive for tournaments that will garner more attention.

Bonchan: Absolutely.

Daigo: Still it's an official domestic tournament with 1 million yen prize, so it's a huge increase when compared to the past.

Itazan: I agree completely. Remember there was once a time when it was normal for large national tournaments to just give out trophies. (laughs)

Daigo: In my personal case, of course the money is important, but it's more accurate to say that I have to also consider what type of merit there is in attending. Now prestige and attention definitely have its merits, but in that sense, the past where we only fought for prestige must change. I know we're entering a sensitive topic, but I think everyone here is aware of this issue.

EVO2014 is Fast Approaching

4Gamer: Let's talk a little more about Evo 2014 which is fast approaching. Are there any foreign players you are paying attention to in USF4? Perhaps you could name players that you simply do not want to face.

Bonchan: Without a doubt, it has to be Xiao hai.

Tokido: Yeah it looks like Xiao hai would use Yun.

Momochi: If you think about his personality, he always uses the strongest character ,so its probably Yun.

Daigo: But Bonchan you play Sagat. Wouldn't you be prepared for his Yun?

Bonchan: Xiao hai said himself that he will use Cammy against Sagat. If it's the current build and I get counter-picked by Cammy, I will probably die. (laughs)

Itazan: I'm more concerned with characters rather than any specific player. Whether I use Zangief or Hawk, Guile will be a difficult matchup.

Tokido: America does have Dieminion right.

Itazan: I hate that. I have very little experience against Guile so if I run into one I'll surely be manhandled.

Momochi: For me it would be Xian and Infiltration. They probably will have sub characters other than Akuma and Gen ready for Evo 2014 and for sure they will be strong. For Infiltration, he might use Rolento and kill me with some combination set play I've never seen before.

4Gamer: Infiltration can use Gouken too, right?

Bonchan: His Gouken is really superb. Its been 2 years since he defeated me at Canada Cup with Gouken so he'll probably use him against me again if we were to meet.

Momochi: In USF4, isn't Gouken a bad matchup for Sagat?

Bonchan: Yes. In Street Fighter 4, Sagat's tiger shot and Gouken's hadouken had the same amount of frames, but now my tiger shot has an additional 3 frames of recovery. If we got into a fireball war, surely it will be tough. Still, Sagat could put up a good fight.

4Gamer: What about you Daigo?

Daigo: After switching to Evil Ryu, the number of players I don't want to face have increased. For example Justin Wong and Ricky's Rufus or PR Balrog's Bison don't really allow Evil Ryu to really leverage his strengths. For some reason, a large number of foreign players play the type of characters that nullify Evil Ryu's best traits. Against Infiltration, it's probably best to use Ryu.

Itazan: So does that mean you will split between Evil Ryu and Ryu?

Daigo: No, I'm done with Ryu.

(everyone laughs)

Kazunoko: I don't like Boxer, so I don't want to face PR Balrog. Furthermore, I've never faced him at an overseas tournament before.

Daigo: Moreover, PR Balrog is able to handle highly offensive opponents such as Cammy or Rufus.

4Gamer: It seems that the player with the most attention in this Evo 2014 is PR Balrog then.

Daigo: Yeah, even I don't want to face him.

Bonchan: It looks troublesome for Evil Ryu to fight that type of Bison. I'll be using Sagat so there's no problem.

Daigo: Even in this version?

Bonchan: Of course I'll be fine. Its just PR Balrog.

Daigo: Oh everyone heard that, right? Please be sure to record this down in the transcript.

(everyone laughs)

4Gamer: After we decided in the character rank that Yun is S tier, are there any other foreign players that may use him at Evo?

Daigo: GamerBee can use him, but his main character Adon is strong in Ultra so I think he would use Adon instead. Morever, if other people tried to start practicing Yun at the start of Ultra, there's no way they would make it in time for Evo.

Tokido: Yes I agree that Yun isn't the type of character to just pick up on a whim. (Points finger at Kazunko) I will admit this as well. If there is a player that I don't want to meet it would be Kazunoko. If it's a race to 2 maybe I could eke out a win, but in a FT3, it would be more difficult.

Kazunoko: Hrm…I see, I see.

4Gamer: Lastly, let's conclude the talk by hearing everyone's aspirations for Evo 2014. Let's start with you Daigo.

Daigo: This time my character is strong so of course I am aiming for the championship, but in these 5 years I've always made top 8 so I want to continue this feat. Even though the timing is short, I want to show everyone my complete mastery over the character Evil Ryu.

Tokido: Up till now I've used Akuma. PR Balrog always teases me and says "You only win because of vortex!", but what he says is partially true. This time I want to show everyone that I can win despite the vortex nerfs by covering all my weak points. I'm curious myself if I can accomplish this in such a short amount of time. For those watching my matches, please pay attention to this. Oh my goodness, it will be very awkward if I'm eliminated before I reach the streaming match after saying all this.


Daigo: That's a risk that everyone here takes. (laughs)

Tokido: Additionally, I definitely should be considered as a potential contender for KOF 13 champion. I think there's a huge sea between my knowledge of the game compared to the foreign players. However foreign players have rich matchup experience that they can cultivate into strength. I think that the meeting of these two forces will make things really hype.

Bonchan: Every year my results at EVO become better and better, so I want to improve and get a top 8 spot. It seems that according to some US rankings, Sagat is 2nd to the bottom, and I want to prove that this is entirely not the case. Please support me.

Momochi: I'm the exact opposite of Bonchan as my results deteriorate every year. I want to last until the final day among the final 8. Of course the end goal is to win it all, but I don't have the confidence to promise that yet.

Daigo: No one can really say "I will win Evo".

Momochi: Well it's just a goal. For now, I'm just aiming to survive until Finals Day.

Itazan: This time around heavy weight characters have a good position among the entire cast. Personally, I think they should be placed higher than the character rank we just constructed, so I want to show everyone that strength. It's time to show everyone how the Yun matchup should be played.

The crowd gathers around Chris G during a UMVC3 match

Kazunoko: Well it could be because it hasn't been long since Ultra SF4 was released, but foreign players don't seem to think Yun is the strongest character. So if you are a foreign player that is watching just how much Yun benefits from delay standing and red saving, please don't get angry okay?

(everyone laughs)

Kazunoko: Last year for UMVC3, I saw around 50 people gathering around Chris G's match. I'm excited to see if that happens to me this year. (laughs)

4Gamer: Everyone, we look forward to your performances this year. Thank you all for your time today.

---

As part of our Pre Evo 2014 coverage special, we tried to do a free and open roundtable discussion for Ultra Street Fighter 4. After pulling all the stops, we discovered there was an abundance of deep opinions from the top players regarding the new balance revision, the competitiveness of fighting games, and the significance of attending tournaments. Among them was Daigo Umehara who has done countless interviews with 4Gamer, but who never really showed such pure expressions of someone who just genuinely loves playing fighting games, until now. Despite a 4 hour marathon discussion filled with laughter, his happy expression left a very deep impression on me.

Regardless, the world's biggest fighting game festival, Evolution 2014, will dawn upon us on July 12th here in Japan. Earlier at CEO2014, aside from Korea's champion Infiltration, many new strong foreign players appeared. It would be folly to doubt that this year's Evo 2014 USF4 tournament will not show us even crazier matches than before. Fighting game fans want to see the type of mind blowing matches that Evo 2014 will deliver. Be prepared for some sleepless nights.

――recorded on June 16, 2014 (Written by Hameko, photo by Ohsu Akira and translated by Zhi)

Ultra Street Fighter 4 Offical Site

「Evolution 2014」Official Site